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Talk:Tomoo's Partners
Note: Even if they are groups, the bullies still count as complete monsters. I mean come on, look at what they did to Lucy, it is highly unforgivable & these kids are horrible!!!!! I've seen Tomoo's article on Elfen Lied wiki & there are many people who are angry with him and hated him so much & many of the comments of fans & users from that wiki considered him a complete monster. When I saw a poll on the wiki's page about Elfen Lied's worst villain ever, Tomoo has the highest votes. Also, even Lucy herself considered him a complete monster due to what he did to her puppy before she mutilates them. So the bullies count as complete monsters!!!!! (Swoobatman (talk) 07:07, December 26, 2013 (UTC)) While yes, killing an animal is bad and all, it doesn't automatically make a villain a complete monster. Killing or abusing an animal is technically a minor offense, compared to other villains who have murdered many people, and/or raped them. I'm not advocating abusing animals, no, no, no. It's just that it's rather hard to get into the complete monster trope, and if they just bullied her, and killed her puppy, it's, at best, a Moral Event Horizon.robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 22:04, March 19, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky I'm not some pillow who instantly starts raging at animal abuse, but the bullies are obviously complete monsters. 1: They bullied an innocent girl for no reason. 2: They beat a defenseless puppy to death in front of the girl's eyes for no reason. 3: They showed no remorse. 4: They weren't VERY tragic, or at least tragic enough for their actions to be justified. (being an orphan doesn't equal tragic. Superman is an orphan). 5: They obviously enjoyed it. If that doesn't equal complete monster, I don't know what does. Though seeing how many people agree the kids aren't CMs, this is just a lost cause. Fireworks888 (talk) 02:24, March 28, 2014 (UTC) Sorry, but murder is NOT a minor offense, no matter what species is involved. You have also to consider motivation and method. In this case, they brutally murdered a dog with a rock/vase/whatever, and only to tease a girl. Welcome to your doom! 02:56, March 28, 2014 (UTC) You also need to consider the looks on the kids faces when they do these nasty things. Those aren't non evil smiles. And the tone in their voices when they talk about the dog and about Kaede and when they laugh. Not normal nasty children laughs or expressions. Those are evil laughs and expressions. Number 1 Tonks Fan (talk) 11:09, March 28, 2014 (UTC) Even if how many times you keep on reasoning that they are just normal MEH crossers & state that complete monsters don't count because you keep on using your group excuse from TV Tropes, they STILL are complete monsters and they will remain as such. Even though the one they killed is an animal, animals have lives too you know. God made animals for us. Also, one of the ten commandments state "Though shall not kill', whether if it is a human or an animal. The bullies FULLY have the primary ingriedients of a complete monster which includes showing no remorse for their crimes, crossing MEH multiple times, are physically depicted to be worst of all infront of the characters, audiences & even other villains, caused hated towards others & are never were presented in a positive way, purely evil, can never ever redeem themselves, were called a monster/demon/ihuman by a protagonist (see quote I already posted in the page) & are entirely hated by many people thus giving them little or no fans at all (as I saw the case of Master Xehanort). Their yet debatable accomplice, the Orphanage Girl (who I don't fully consider to be evil though ironically I created a page about her here on the wikias based on other's opinions) was horrified by this too when Tomoo killed. A majority believed that if Lucy didn't kill them in the first place, they would grow into something worse like a serial killer & there are some as I saw the reactions of several Elfen Lied fans where they state that even if you will bring them to a parallel universe, they will remain the same. Also, I wrote there in the trivia about their similarity to Chris Hargensen & Billy Nolan from Carrie, who are also complete monsters after I watched Carrie, notably the 2002 version as both are bullies who wickedly ruined the protagonist's life, even if it means by murder. If you (the users who don't consider these stupid kids CMs, especially you Robinsonbecky ) don't consider them as such, consider that the bullies are complete monsters whether you like it or not. If you still won't accept this and always keep on removing CM everytime, I will request Magma Dragoon to immediately have this page locked for good. Also note, I will keep an eye on this page everytime I visit the wiki to make sure nobody ever remove CM. (Swoobatman (talk) 11:17, March 28, 2014 (UTC)) These kids are undeniably truly evil socipaths, but they have to be the worst villain by the show's standards. No character on the show can be eviler than them. They are literally the worst being imaginable in their universe. The Unknown Man from what I've heard has commited rape, torture and murder. While killing a girl's puppy infront of them is almost heartless, it's by far not the worst thing a villain on the show has done. If they weren't in such a dark series then they would be CMs but several of the villains on this show make their actions look kind of mild. Zoether (talk) 18:57, March 28, 2014 (UTC) That's a weak argument. Just because there are villains worse than the kids doesn't mean they're not CMs. According to this wiki, a complete monster is pure evil, never redeemed, crossed the MEH, is revolted by another villain (Lucy and the orphanage girl), has crimes that are unjustifible, and are never presented in a positive way. The bullies perfectly qualify for all of these categories. I think we can all agree here that they're pure evil, they died before they were redeemed or justified, they're presented as stereotypical bads guys, Lucy and the orphanage girl, who are other villains, are truly revolted by their behavior, and we can all agree that animal abuse, murder, and intense bullying is crossing in the MEH. Fireworks888 (talk) 19:50, March 28, 2014 (UTC) Okay, if you think they're monsters, I do not care. I'm done here. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 23:16, March 28, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky "Just because there are villains worse than the kids doesn't mean they're not CMs" Yes it does because it says on the page that the villain has to be truely heinous by the show's standards and like I said other villains have done worse. They have to meet ALL the requirements. These kids are irredeemably evil that's true, but their in a world where murder and rape are common crimes. A CM has to stick out from the rest of the villains in the work, if they don't stick out than they can't be CMs. Zoether (talk) 04:57, March 29, 2014 (UTC) Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. However, they DID commit murder (yeah, I know murder is a common crime there, but murder is murder no matter what fiction you're in). Unless the animal is attacking you, murdering an animal is just as bad as murdering a human, though it's really up for the admins to decide. Fireworks888 (talk) 05:13, March 29, 2014 (UTC) Zoether, I have checked Elfen Lied wiki, the bullies are the most hated villains ever, leading them as the top most hated villain throughout the series, even far more hated than Unknown Man who is probably second & Director Kakuzawa who is probably third. It is just easy to say that you never actually watched that scene. I watched that scene perfectly. Also, your excuse is useless (Swoobatman (talk) 12:41, March 29, 2014 (UTC)) Swoobatman, just becasue an entire wiki hates these characters doesn't automatically mean they're complete monsters. Also like Zoether had said, maybe in a different world these characters may as well be monsters. However, they so happen to be from a show where there are worser antagonists such as the Unknown Man who is a known pedophile, and that there is also the subject of committing genoicide on the Diclonius race in the show. Also, since when is killing an animal considered murder? Yes, killing an animal for no reason is bad, but I don't think you would define the killing as murder. Killing another person is much worse than killing an animal. And again, according to TV Tropes, their actions have to be heinous in story. Because other characters commit far worse crimes compared to these bullies, they are simply overshadowed by the others' heinous actions. Overall, you should read up on what TV Tropes considers a complete monster. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 13:39, March 29, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky It doesn't matter what TV Tropes says or not. The term used at this wiki, Complete Monster and many others, is simply borrowed from this TT. We're NOT TV Tropes, we don't have to import every rule from it to here, that's why many articles have been deleted. Also, yes, the official definition of murder is killing another human. But at this wiki, there are aliens, animals, and gods, so here, murder solely counts as taking the live of another sentient being. So yeah, they're murderers. One last thing, the Green Goblin is considered a CM, yet Galactus and several other Marvel villains (who have been established to exist in the same story) are infinitely worse than him, making the whole considered-awful-by-story-standards slightly subjective. Besides that, I can see what you mean from another perspective, but I still believe that these children are complete monsters (I know I'm being stubborn and annoying here) Fireworks888 (talk) 02:01, March 30, 2014 (UTC) I just thought that since we borrowed the term from TV Tropes that we should at least employ a bit of their criteria to the category so that we wouldn't get any bad examples added to it. And I'm sorry killing an animal isn't murder, even if the animal is sentinent. That's like calling butchers out for killing cows and chickens. They're not doing the job because they enjoy killing animals, they're doing the job just to get a profit. And besides, TV Tropes has more understanding on what qualifies as a complete monster and what doesn't. I'm not starting a war, but I still stand by my opinion that these boys are not monsters. They come close, but they fall short compared to other antagonists such as the Unknown Man. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 02:28, March 30, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky By that logic, Man isn't a murderer since he's a human who killed an animal. Okay, let's stop using the word "murderer". Let's say "killer". The definition for murder is unlawfully killing another human. The definition of kill is "cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing)." So now, the bullies are without a doubt KILLERS, yet killer is a synonym for murderer so yeah. Plus, don't bring the big talk butcher thing in here. The bullies killed an animal for the sake of being spiteful and malicious. A butcher killed an animal so he'd earn profit and someone would earn another full stomach so they won't die. Now that that's out of the way, I'm just saying you shouldn't say "If TV Tropes said it, then it's undeniably true" like how you're saying Syndrome isn't a CM, but that's off-topic. It doesn't matter what TV Tropes says, it matters what this wiki says. Now, do the bullies meet this wiki's definition? Almost, their actions don't rival other EL villain crimes, yet as I said that's highly subjective (like the exceptions of other CMs like the Green Goblin). Seriously, why have the admins not done anything yet? I know they can't take care of every conflict, but this has been going on for too long and think an admin's say should be posted. I just hope this doesn't spin off into anything too big that starts effecting the wiki. (e.i. I don't want to get banned for "bickering" like Reson and Voice), so I'm willing to just give up if this gets out of hand. Fireworks888 (talk) 04:09, March 30, 2014 (UTC) Since when did I say that Syndrome didn't count? I believe he does. Like Overseer80 had stated earlier, TV Tropes has made some mistakes with their judgments. Still, I believe that since the category was borrowed from TV Tropes, we should at least respect their criteria when it comes to this category. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 13:04, March 30, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky Oh, I assumed you thought Syndrome wasn't a CM because I got you mixed up Joshua.foote.14, who removed it, sorry. Fireworks888 (talk) 23:26, March 30, 2014 (UTC) Here's the thing. Let's say we forget that the term came from TV Tropes for a moment. The reason groups don't qualify as complete monsters is because groups lack moral capacity. Theoretically, an individual from a group can count as a CM if they meet all the criteria. Out of all three bullies, Tomoo would be the one who would stick out more as a complete monster, because he has the most personality out of all of the bullies combined. Heck, the other two bullies don't even have names. There's also the fact that Tomoo himself killed the puppy, and not the other two. Though, you could make the argument that they helped set up the situation wherein the dog died, but overall, Tomoo is the one that gives the finishing blow. Let's make a deal: We could make a separate article for Tomoo, and add the complete monster category to his article, and remove the category for this page? What do you say?robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 00:38, March 31, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky I think that might not work either since that page might be possibly a redundant, even though former admin Inferno Dragon advised me to do so. The content of the page will just be the same as these bullies. (Swoobatman (talk) 00:47, March 31, 2014 (UTC)) Yeah, that's actually correct. The other two could simply be doing it because of peer pressure, while Tomoo has plenty of morality and is fully aware of his actions. Though it would be slightly redundant, it may work. Fireworks888 (talk) 01:01, March 31, 2014 (UTC) The Tomoo article doesn't have to exactly sound the same as the main bullies article. We could spice it up a bit. And like I stated before, out of all the bullies, Tomoo is the one that has the most personality. He's the most sadistic, the most self-aware, and most likely the most vile out of all the other bullies. He's the one that would've most likely developed into a serial killer had Lucy not have killed him. I don't mean to start a debate, but I believe that Tomoo is more of a complete monster than the other two bullies are. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 03:00, March 31, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky Yeah, I think we've come to a compromise. The Bullies aren't CMs, but Tomoo certainly is. Fireworks888 (talk) 20:38, March 31, 2014 (UTC) Okay, the page is up. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 22:37, March 31, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky Just in case Tomoo's page gets deleted, the complete monster should return right? I will currently remove CM for now. (Swoobatman (talk) 00:35, April 1, 2014 (UTC)) Sure, go ahead. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 00:43, April 1, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky Another thing about the other unnamed two who were accompanying Tomoo, they were obviously not forced or convinced to join him after I really watched that really hated damn scene where they cross MEH again, also known as the video posted in this page. One of the two (the black haired guy who almost look like a younger version of Kurama without glasses) helped Tomoo hold the puppy so he can beat the poor thing to death & they physically enjoyed it while showing no remorse. Also note that I will not bring back CM unless IF Tomoo's page ever gets deleted as part of the deal. Also, if any users who believe that the other unnamed two were actual CMs and are on your opinion not forced, just please leave a reply about the other two kids are also CMs & they were obviously not forced to join him bully Lucy. (Swoobatman (talk) 01:12, April 28, 2014 (UTC)) Please don't start this again. We've previously had argument after argument about Queen Elsa getting a page here on this wiki, so we don't need to dig up this argument again. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 02:03, April 28, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky I'm not fully starting another arguement, I'm just stating it due to the fact there are still other users who still refuse not to believe that Tomoo is the only CM. Another advise, even if you request this page to be locked without CM on it, there will still be other users who will try to request an admin to add CM on this page and they will not stop until they are contented that the bullies are already labeled CMs. An easier solution to this is that we all vote it out and let the users decide on this. (Swoobatman (talk) 02:09, April 30, 2014 (UTC)) Basic edit done Okay. I think I've improved the article, or at least gotten it away from some hyperbolic narrative. I'm going to ask some other EL Wiki admins to give it a look. Thanks for unlocking. Gojirob (talk) 18:59, November 15, 2015 (UTC)